Gulf Coast Poker Forums

I posted the full story on my blog here: http://www.pokerpenguin.net/2008/04/20/ ... m-harrahs/

But here's a short version:

Playing a $1/$2 NL game at Harrah's. I have about $150. 7 people on the table and I had been playing for a little over an hour and thus developed a pretty decent read on the skill level at the table. The game is fairly loose and the skill level is fairly horrible (IMHO).

I'm UTG+1 with Q9o. UTG just sat down at the table and limps. I limp. A few limpers join in. The BB raise to $12. UTG calls. I make an extremely loose call. Everyone else folds. $40 pot, 3 players.

The flop comes out Q96 (two clubs). BB makes a continuation bet for $25. UTG calls. Both players have me covered.

I think for a bit and then go all in, making it a $110 additional to call.

What do you think?

seems like a good move to me. already about 90 in the pot, flush draw on board, give them improper odds to draw. i would have done it the same way.

Hey David, welcome to GCP!

I read your article about this and actually started to respond, but my rant became rather lengthy, so I didn't post it. I love NL, but am far from an authority, so take my point of view with a grain of salt. There are a couple of regular NL players around and I hope they will chime in.

*BEGIN RANT* First of all, I run from Q9o like the plague, especially in early position. So I never see this flop. When the BB raises it gives me an even better reason to muck. *END RANT* I also understand that we all have our hands we like to play, even though they suck. Take a look at my avatar.

As played though, you're in a tough spot. It looks like a good flop for you, but it's really dangerous. It's draw heavy and the original raiser is still saying he has a good hand. UTG is calling with something so he's probably drawing to a flush or straight - maybe KQ as well. If you push the flop you may get a hand like J10o or AKo to fold. You double through AA and KK here. But you're not going to get a big draw like AK or J10 clubs to fold. J10 of clubs is actually a favorite to win by the river.

IMHO, your best bet is to smooth call the flop to disguise your hand and not commit yourself to the pot. I shove any non-straight or flush card on the turn. If the flush or straight comes and there's a lot of action, you can get away from the hand.

I'm anxious to hear what the other NL players here have to say.

Well.. putting someone on JTc is a little past my ability to read hands. I had him on a range of hands... either A rag of clubs (or even a T) or JT. I was right, I just didn't know how right I was. JTc was something I thought about, but to me it was a Monster Under the Bed type of thing and I decided that I wasn't going to just let my chips be drained away because I'm afraid of the one hand that I'm actually afraid of.

I didn't, btw, put him on a set specifically because, 1. He didn't raise preflop, so not a set of Qs or 9s. 2. He didn't raise after the flop, so not a set of 6s. If he had a set and didn't raise, he's either too stupid to know what he's doing or he knows that I'm going to raise it and in that case, he's way better than me.

So in my mind, he either had 8 outs or 9 outs. There was $90 in the pot. I made it $110 to win $200. He was getting less than 2 to 1 on his money for roughly 3 to 1 on his cards.

Now, let's just say that I called... I'm putting in $25 to make the pot $115. If a club or a straight card comes out, I can get out, right? But what happens if a blank comes on the turn and the BB bets half the pot again? Then what do I do? The pot could be $175 or $235 and I only have $60 behind me after I call.... and obviously I have to call... after all, if I've read the situation correctly (which for sake of argument, let's say I did), I'm still in the lead! But, now I don't have enough money to do anything. If a club or straight card comes on the river, I'm nearly pot committed now.

So basically, they either get all my money by the river because I've called or I can use my stack and hopefully win the pot right there or reduce the number of players I'm playing against.

Now, the BB, could have had a set... but, he's the one I had about an hours worth of info on. In that hour, I had observed he wasn't that good. He often called when it was clear he was beat. He liked to make continuation bets when hitting the flop. Also, he often over valued his hands. Now, his play was consistent with a set... a preflop raise, then a half-pot sized bet on the flop... but, I just didn't think he had it. Even when he called my all-in. I just knew that he had top pair or an over pair, like KK or AA.

So, without UTG having JTc (the only hand that I considered a danger), I was, at worst, a 60% favorite to win a big pot.

That's why I did what I did. I'm fairly sure I was right... but this is why I posted this, to get other perspectives.

Lastly, Q9 is a hand that I like to play because it's me... I've won a surprising number of times with that hand. But really bottom line, the reason that I played that hand is that I thought I was a better table than the other players at the table and I could out play them after the flop. Maybe that's arrogance on my part, but I knew that if I hit, there was the potential that it would be disguised and I could win a big pot with it. If I missed and saw that someone else hit, I was going to muck it.

I think there may be something to Q9. I decided to play it in your honor during one of the Full Tilt WSOP Freerolls earlier. Here's pic of what happened.




As far as the all-in move, after thinking about it some more, that probably is your best chance to win the pot. It's the only time you're going to have any fold equity. If the BB can get away from TPTK, AA or KK, you win the pot. If the BB calls your all-in -- the flush draw is getting great odds to call with two cards to come.

Q9 is magic!

well being a dealer personally...

i think it could have been don a bit better although nothings wrong with that move but just think..

your short stack at table...for the odds at 110 if someone has j10 or a flush draw they definitely would call for 110 bucks..
so i would have seen the turn and judged from there if it comes blank then maybe an all in but at that point he can figure..hell ive got two cards to catch x amount of outs ..not even figuring if hes already crushed or not...

Based on the responses so far, I gather I'm quite a bit nittier than you guys, so take the following in that spirit.

First, I'm not playing Q9o in early position in a NL cash game, period. It's too weak, you are vulnerable to an A or K on the flop. Even if you make top pair, your kicker isn't very good. Also, if you make a flush, it's vulnerable to the A or K, too. To me, that's a hand to play, if at all, in the cutoff or the button if it's been folded to me. Even then, I'm raising 4x-5x the big blind and hope to pick up the blinds and get to the next hand. Otherwise, automatic fold for me.

Second, the big blind raises. The big blind is raising into a bunch of limpers, which means he's not afraid of a wide range of hands and not afraid to play it out of position for the rest of the hand. Absent any other information you have on him (was he a maniac? drunk?, etc?), I put him on a big pair or two big cards. Whatever he's got, it beats my Q9o and it's not worth another $10 to see if I hit the flop. Another automatic fold.

Third, the continuation bet from the preflop raiser. He's not afraid of the flop, or he's representing that he's not. Starting with the first (he's not afraid): I think I'm up against AA, KK, AQ or KQ here and maybe 99. So I'm ahead, unless he's got QQ. However, with people to act behind me, a possible set behind me, open ender and club flush draw, I'd either just call or fold, depending on my read on the rest of the opponents. Depending on their stack sizes, they still may have the implied odds to call your all in. This hand is trouble and I'm looking for a reason to get out of it and this is enough. If someone takes down the pot with A9s or something, oh well. I may have lost money on that hand, but I know I've got a table full of people dying to give me their money, so I wait and pounce later when I have a hand and in control of the action.

Hey everyone, first post here. Looks like a great board! I'm not important enough to start a thread introducing myself so here it is.

Ignatius, I agree with the preflop stuff but I disagree with the post flop play. You need to push here because of all the possible hands you mentioned he could have, including the draws. The other opponents in the pot make you want to push even more. You are most likely ahead right now but a ton of turn cards will either improve your opponents' hands or scare them into submission.

Any club, 6, 8, T, J, K and maybe any ace is bad news for you. It's not that your opponent has that many outs its just that you don't know which of those hands will help him. You're still the favorite to win the hand but you don't know what cards are safe. The pot is big enough that a push here is not overkill. Plenty of worse hands will call you here. UTG call means nothing to me except extra dead money. If he's an average crappy live player the UTG call isn't frightening. If UTG is good, he would have raised. The only way UTGs call could be bad news is if he's a crappy live player and slowplayed a set, which isn't likely.

A fold here is bad because you are very likely ahead and a call is bad because you'd be giving amazing odds for everyone to improve against you. It doesn't matter if your push still gives other people the odds to call. People draw for great odds in fixed limit all the time but that doesn't mean people with TPTK type hands shouldn't bet. Great push, OP.